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| {{DISPLAYTITLE:<span style="position: absolute; clip: rect(1px 1px 1px 1px); clip: rect(1px, 1px, 1px, 1px);">{{FULLPAGENAME}}</span>}} __NOTOC__{{ProposalRules}} | | {{#css: .firstHeading{display:none} }} __NOTOC__{{ProposalRules}} |
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| ='''Current Proposals'''= | | ='''Current Proposals'''= |
| ==Solidifying character names and attributes in article writing (January 29th, 2023 - February 12th, 2023)==
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| So, I've noticed recently that there's been some edits made to character and enemy pages in regards to gender pronouns. In particular, there was a push on the [[Kracko]] and [[Dyna Blade]] pages to refer to them by different genders based on which game was being discussed (since genders are not always consistent in in-game flavor text). I find this to be highly inappropriate for any characters that have been established as individuals (unlike, say, [[Broom Hatter]], which refers more to a class of characters rather than a single entity). This incident has brought up a larger issue with how to treat attributes of characters and other entities which span multiple games and whose names and other characteristics may differ from one to the next. I come to you now offering a new standardized way to handle this, though it needs to be done in multiple facets which can be voted on individually. I will introduce each particular point and describe the proposed change in its own subsection. Cheers. --[[User:Samwell|Samwell]] ([[User talk:Samwell|talk]]) 14:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| ===Change 1: Solidifying character gender===
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| To summarize what was said above, I believe we need a clause in place to prevent established characters from being referred to by different genders in text based on erroneous or inconsistent in-game flavor text. As such, I'd like to add this to the writing standards:
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| "For characters established as individuals, their gender must be consistent throughout article text and based on the most consistently-used pronouns in games ("he/she/they" generally takes priority over "it"). It is not appropriate to refer to these characters using different pronouns based on the game unless there is a specific special story or lore-based circumstance for doing so. Note that this rule does not apply across different [[canon]]s (For example, [[Kracko]] in the games VS. Kracko in the [[Kirby: Right Back at Ya!|anime]].), only within canons."
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| {{Support}}
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| #Kracko: "While <u>his</u> pause screen flavor from ''[[Kirby Fighters Deluxe]]'', implies that <u>he</u> fights Kirby to get a comeback for <u>his</u> previous losses, however, in ''[[Kirby: Triple Deluxe]]'', <u>it</u> appears <u>it</u> attacks Kirby because of Taranza's command." <= possible shenanigans that could occur with changing pronouns by appearance. Thus, I support to make it an official rule. {{User:Superbound/sig}} 15:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #I 100% agree with this. I was looking at the [[idle animation]] page and noticed that Driblee was referred to with female pronouns, while on the actual [[Driblee]] page the enemy is referred to with it as pronouns. And it doesn't help that Driblee is referred to with all types of pronouns as well. [[User:GoldenDragonLeaf|GoldenDragonLeaf]] ([[User talk:GoldenDragonLeaf|talk]]) 03:42, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #Agreed. The devs being inconsistient doesn't mean that we need to be inconsistient. {{User:Pinkyoshifan/sig}} 16:00, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #I support consistency and clarity, regardless of minor developer errors. Both the first and second parts of this proposal will prevent readers from becoming confused. {{User:Kirb/sig}} 17:52, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| {{Oppose}}
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| {{Neutral}}
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| #I don't think enough guidelines are set for me to warrant voting on this. There may be cases where use is too inconsistent to officially suggest one path or another. [[User:Trig Jegman|Trig]] - 16:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #For what it's worth, I don't feel like this particular issue "deserves" a strict guideline. As Trig said, cases of great inconsitency, which I consider to be fairly likely, could arise. [[User:Infinite Possibilities|Infinite Possibilities]] ([[User talk:Infinite Possibilities|talk]]) 20:16, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| ====Change 1 discussion====
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| ''the most consistently-used pronouns in games''
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| So just to clarify, if we were making Kracko's page in 2014, even though ''Triple Deluxe'' refers to Kracko by "it" and it's the most recent Kirby game, considering Kracko had been consistently been referred to as "he" before, we would still use "he", and if the next games started to use "it" for Kracko we would change the whole page to refer to Kracko as "it", but if it didn't, we would just keep using "he"? {{User:Gigi/sig}} 16:28, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| :I think if we got to the point where so many subsequent games started using "it" consistently, then we'd have to conclude that "it" is what they intend, so yes, in that case we would change the whole article to "it". That would be an extreme outlier case, though, as far as I am concerned. --[[User:Samwell|Samwell]] ([[User talk:Samwell|talk]]) 16:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| ===Change 2: Solidifying entity names===
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| On WiKirby, it has been customary to refer to the names of entities differently based on which game or other media they are in. For example, in the original ''[[Kirby's Dream Land]]'', [[Maxim Tomato]]es are referred to as "Bag of Magic Food" in the manual, so they are called that on the wiki whenever talking about them in article text specific to ''Kirby's Dream Land''. Another example is referring to [[Tiff]] by her Japanese name "Fumu" whenever talking about the Japanese version of the anime specifically. However, it has been brought up that this convention can be confusing to readers, even if strictly speaking more accurate. If this sub-proposal passes, WiKirby will stop referring to entities by different names based on circumstance and only use the most consistent names, mentioning different names only as an aside, unless that different name is prominent in the game/scenario (such as the name "Aeon Hero" for [[Galacta Knight]] in ''[[Super Kirby Clash]]'').
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| {{Support}}
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| #I very much agree with this. I have had a decent amount of confusion reading some articles due to the names not being consistent. As for the anime, I feel like this would especially help those (like me) who have never watched the Japanese sub and would save time so they do not need to look up whatever it is that they are confused about. {{User:Starvoid/sig}} 14:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #This seems reasonable—as an extreme supporting example, you wouldn't leave an entity un-named when discussing it in the context of a specific game if that entity got a consistent name in later games. Any context short of literally quoting from the instruction manual or strategy guide should simply have a parenthetical aside or footnote about the original name, and move on using whatever name is (or would be) used for the article for that entity based on the wiki naming policy. {{User:WillIdleAway/sig}} 15:11, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #We also stick to this unwritten rule even if it's a clear typo or mistranslation, Mr. Flosty being most infamous example. I don't really see why we need to stick to developers' mistakes in writing everywhere, especially if they later correct themselves. {{User:Superbound/sig}} 15:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #It ''is'' pretty confusing in the most egregious of cases (articles related to the anime especially), so standardizing things in this manner would make it easier for readers that aren't invested in the ''Kirby'' series as a whole to not get lost. In other words, per all. – [[User:Owencrazyboy17|Owencrazyboy17]] ([[User talk:Owencrazyboy17|talk]]) 17:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #Personally, I feel like consistency is key. By making everything uniform, it will make things less confusing for everyone. I've also gotten a bit confused myself at times when reading articles, so standardizing everything would greatly help. Would definitely have to add a note at the start of all the pages saying that in game they're referred differently however. [[User:GoldenDragonLeaf|GoldenDragonLeaf]] ([[User talk:GoldenDragonLeaf|talk]]) 03:49, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #Agreed. Same as with the gender thing, the devs being inconsistient doesn't mean that we need to be inconsistient. {{User:Pinkyoshifan/sig}} 16:01, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #Above has said enough. Sounds good to me. [[User:Trig Jegman|Trig]] - 16:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #As long as the exception in the last sentence of this proposal means we don't just start systemically changing all "[[Smash]]" or "[[Fireball]]" appearances to "[[Smash Bros.]]" and "[[Burning]]" disregarding the context reader is put into. If there's say a [[Glitches in Kirby & The Amazing Mirror|glitch in ''Kirby & The Amazing Mirror'']] or [[Glitches in Kirby's Adventure|''Kirby's Adventure'']] that requires prominently named Smash or Fireball abilities in respective games, telling the reader/player to aquire "Smash Bros." or "Burning", non-existent as such in respective games, would be more confusing than vice-versa. Whereas examples brought up in this proposal are an obscure prototypical name of [[Maxim Tomato]] in an instruction manual and a romanization of [[Tiff]]'s name in a different language/localization. {{User:Vipz/sig}} 23:41, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #I support consistency and clarity, regardless of minor developer errors. Both the first and second parts of this proposal will prevent readers from becoming confused. {{User:Kirb/sig}} 18:09, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| #Consistency provides clarity, so I think this is a valid thing to happen. Additionally, here it would be much clearer what the "prominent name" is. [[User:Infinite Possibilities|Infinite Possibilities]] ([[User talk:Infinite Possibilities|talk]]) 20:16, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| {{Oppose}}
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| {{Neutral}}
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| ====Change 2 discussion====
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| Here's a theoretical question: what if the next ''[[Keeby|Kirby]]'' game were to call Waddle Doo "Cyclops Dee"? Would we have to move the enemy's page, change all mentions of and links to it, and move all files related to it? {{User:Kirb/sig}} 17:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| :Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that that happens. If the name was prominent in the game (used repeatedly in dialogue, given a formal nameplate, etc.) then we'd be forced to use that name when referring to Waddle Doo in that specific context. If it's just a weird outlier (like the name of a keychain or character treat), then it can be mentioned as an aside and otherwise ignored. --[[User:Samwell|Samwell]] ([[User talk:Samwell|talk]]) 18:02, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| ::That makes sense, but if "Cyclops Dee" were to be used exclusively, would we be forced to use "Cyclops Dee" retroactively? Would it depend on if said game was a mainline or spin-off game, or if the name began to appear in all official media? {{User:Kirb/sig}} 18:06, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| :::I think it would take several games and a concerted push from HAL to make that happen, so it wouldn't be a sudden decision on our part. --[[User:Samwell|Samwell]] ([[User talk:Samwell|talk]]) 18:07, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| ::::Alright, that makes sense to me. {{User:Kirb/sig}} 18:09, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| ===Change 3: Infobox representation===
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| Admittedly, this one's not really an issue right now, but I still think it's important to have a firm decision on this point. For the main infobox of the page, the image used of a character or other entity should be the most representative/consistent image, not necessarily the most recent one. This rule has largely been followed in practice, but a formal clause should be put in place so nobody thinks to put whatever temporary makeover [[King Dedede]] gets in the next game up as his main infobox image like what was attempted when ''[[Kirby and the Forgotten Land]]'' was the upcoming game. :P
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| {{Support}}
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| #Not much to add here other than I completely agree. It's been an unwritten rule for a while so I fully support making it an official one. {{User:Gigi/sig}} 15:03, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #Agree as well, provided that accompanying the policy is a document with a few different example entities showing examples of representative and un-representative images for each. {{User:WillIdleAway/sig}} 15:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #Agreed. The infobox is meant for the character as a whole, not for the character in one game specifically. {{User:Pinkyoshifan/sig}} 16:05, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #Kind of surprised we weren't doing this already, to be honest. [[User:Trig Jegman|Trig]] - 16:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| #As long as we the editors can come to a consensus on what is the most "representative" image of a character, I support this. Epic Yarn is a good example of why using the latest official artwork of a character is not always the best action. {{User:Kirb/sig}} 17:58, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| {{Oppose}}
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| {{Neutral}}
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| #Similar to change one, there may come up some things where a "most representative" image would need proper deciding between editors first. So while I'm not exactly opposed to the idea to make it a real guideline, I can't say I'm really convinced either. [[User:Infinite Possibilities|Infinite Possibilities]] ([[User talk:Infinite Possibilities|talk]]) 20:16, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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| ====Change 3 discussion====
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| So, at the risk of opening a can of caterpillars but just to have a point of reference ... with the example of Dedede, what ''would'' be considered the most representative/consistent image? (It's definitely ''not'' the KatFL design, true.)
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| And for enemies that only appeared in sprite-based games, would we consider official out-of-game artwork to be more representative than the in-game sprite where appropriate, or vice versa? It seems like [[Twizzy]] (my beloved) is a good case study in that (in my eye) the official KDL artwork is clearly inconsistent but the KNiDL artwork (which is the current infobox image) is reasonably consistent with all of the in-game sprites and much higher-resolution (and thus should stay the infobox image). {{User:WillIdleAway/sig}} 15:02, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| :We can probably formalize some finer details, but basically right now an image like that would be any artwork when available, from the most recent game that accurately represents the character. Sure the specifics of that is hard to put into words, but using Dedede again as an example, he is using [[:File:KRtDLD King Dedede.png]] which accurate represents him. We didn't use [[:File:KatFL King Dedede artwork.png]] when FL was his latest appearence because that's his appearance as a boss only, which for an article about Dedede as a whole would be innacurate as he's more often an ally than foe lately. Another examples of images that wouldn't fit his main infobox would be [[:File:King Dedede SSBU.png]] (as it's from Smash), [[:File:Buff King Dedede KSA artwork.png]] (again, boss form), and [[:File:K30AMF King Dedede artwork.png]] (using a design from a real world event and not a game). {{User:Gigi/sig}} 15:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| ::I actually like this way of framing it—in ambiguous situations like this, counterexamples are often the best way to suggest what is acceptable. (Tangential example: one might show an example of an acceptable photo for a passport or ID card, followed by several mildly amusing examples of clearly unacceptable photos, suggesting regions of acceptable and unacceptable images without actually having to draw the border.) To that list of Dedede counterexamples I would also add [[:File:King Dedede ball KCC artwork.png]], potentially also to argue that designs should be from mainline Kirby games as opposed to spin-off games wherever possible, and [[:File:KDB_Character_Treat_Kirby_riding_King_Dedede_artwork.png]], since it's low-res and an indirect appearance (even if the most recent one out of all the released games—this would also preclude a Keychain somehow ending up as the infobox image). {{User:WillIdleAway/sig}} 15:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| Agreed with this, since it has long been an unwritten rule, but I have one small question, what if the design stays same, but the artstyle is different (both minor, like everything having thick outlines as it is seen in KRtDLD, but also more major, like ''[[Kirby: Canvas Curse]]'' or ''[[Kirby and the Rainbow Curse]]'')? {{User:Superbound/sig}} 15:40, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
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| {{clear}}
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| :IMO we should probably treat it case-by-cases, but minor artstyle changes I would say should be fine to use, drastic ones probably not, but for example I'm not sure if I consider ''Rainbow Curse'' a major one, but ''Canvas Curse'' and ''Epic Yarn'' I would. {{User:Gigi/sig}} 16:25, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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| ='''Proposal Archive'''= | | ='''Proposal Archive'''= |
| {{Large|[[WiKirby:Proposals/Archive|Successful proposals]]</br> | | {{Large|[[WiKirby:Proposals/Archive|Successful proposals]]</br> |
| [[WiKirby:Proposals/Failed Archive|Failed proposals]]</br> | | [[WiKirby:Proposals/Failed Archive|Failed proposals]]</br> |
| [[WiKirby:Proposals/Withdrawn Archive|Withdrawn proposals]]}} | | [[WiKirby:Proposals/Withdrawn Archive|Withdrawn proposals]]}} |
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| {{clear}} | | {{clear}} |
| {{Navbox-Help}} | | {{Navbox-Help}} |
| [[Category:WiKirby]] | | [[Category:WiKirby]] |
