Talk:The Skull Gang

Split

I've mentioned this before on Discord, but only now decided to officially kick off this discussion. Personally, I find Terrifying Fiend unfitting to just be a quick mention in this page. For starters, it's a final boss theme, and for that alone I feel it deserves a page. For me this is like if we covered Last Boss / Second Form from Amazing Mirror in Deep Sea Area of the same game, just because the two songs happen to share melodies. Sure, of course Terrifying Fiend being a partial remix of The Skull Gang actually makes sense since Necrodeus leads them, but even so. And secondly, currently the song feels weird in this page. The other two songs from Mass Attack covered here are not only more obvious and simpler remixes of the song, and they are all way less important than not only The Skull Gang itself, but also Terrifying Fiend. So Terrifying Fiend also being here and quickly mentioned like those other songs just feels unfitting. And lastly, since Terrifying Fiend is a partial remix, and not a simple remix, it has unique stuff to be talked about for its composition, so in a page for it, it wouldn't be a repeat of The Skull Gang for its composition section.

So, what do you all think? - Gigi (talk • edits) 18:06, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Like I said when the conversation first arose (plus new comments): in the case of "Last Boss / Second Form", the Olive Ocean melody is only the middle section, while the rest has a distinct melody as is, AND both were remixed. Meanwhile what "Terrifying Fiend" adds is comparable to the changes between "Grape Gardens" and "Dreaming of Clouds": an intro, and maybe extended outro. At its core, the intro is heavily based on the main part, in both cases. Meanwhile something like "Sword of the Surviving Guardian" (under My Friend and the Sunset), which not only has a new variation on the melody but also elements from different tracks, is confined to its root melody's page. If the argument that it is "de facto still Meta Knight's motif" stands, then I don't see why something that is "de facto the Skulls' motif" should be split off. ShadowKirby (t/c) a.k.a. your new overlord ShadowMagolor 04:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Well, currently we plan to create VS. The Wicked Company apart from The Noble Haltmann, which is much more of a "vanilla" remix than the ones mentioned here (and I agree it deserves a separate page). Point is, we don't have a set rule, I am just arguing a final boss theme deserves much more. - Gigi (talk • edits) 19:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, I just looked at the Forgotten Land section of My Friend and the Sunset and... dang, that's mouthful (pun intended). I need to shorten that. Anyway, honestly, I would need to listen to it again, because I remember it just being My Friend and the Sunset. - Gigi (talk • edits) 19:03, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Just went to listen to Sword of the Surviving Guardian again, and all I hear is the main motif of My Friend and the Sunset over and over again. I don't see how it's supposed to be more distant from My Friend and the Sunset than Terrifying Fiend is to The Skull Gang. - Gigi (talk • edits) 19:12, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

There are significant changes in the motif at the beginning, even though it is essentially the same motif. And it's a similar story for "Terrifying Fiend", the intro is based on a modified version of "The Skull Gang"'s motif. And I will once again bring up "Dreaming of Clouds", which has a (shorter) intro which is a variation on the melody. That one by no means should be split, but (the only reason I'm bringing it up is that both "Sword of the Surviving Guardian" and "Dreaming of Clouds" have audio files beginning from the unmodified motifs, which isn't the case for this page but either scenario can be fixed). ShadowKirby (t/c) a.k.a. your new overlord ShadowMagolor 07:46, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm in general agreement that Terrifying Fiend should have its own page. It's different enough from the main theme, and we do that for other songs that use leitmotifs from more widespread themes already. --Samwell (talk) 18:38, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Counter argument, this is not that much of a widespread theme (a total of 4 forms counting Terrifying Fiend), it is used to characterize a member of the Skull Gang, and is first an intro based on the theme and then the theme itself. A comparison I didn't have last time is also Frostak's theme under Rainbow Resort (theme). ShadowKirby (t/c) a.k.a. your new overlord ShadowMagolor 18:57, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind Sword of the Surviving Guardian getting its own page... anyway, even if final bosses are important for reasons everyone already knows, I don't think their themes are justified in having pages just *because* they're final boss themes. Especially when things regarding the Skull Gang in general are already spread so very thin (see the info for Skull Gang, which has an info page longer than its actual page...) I think it's best to keep what we do have here in peace, in one piece, in one place. No one's vying for Morpho Knight's Star Allies and Forgotten Land themes to be split. Waddlez3121 (talk) 05:11, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

This still needs more options from different people. Also, Waddlez, please reread my whole argument, I'm not saying that it should be split just because it's a final boss theme, after all Yin-Yarn's themes are in Boss (theme from Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards), but those are there because they are literally just that song with like some small differences in melody and different instruments and that's it. Terrifying Fiend is a partial remix of the theme, while the other themes covered in this page are simple remixes and/or short. We shouldn't be lumping together songs just in a pure musical sense, otherwise Fountain of Dreams (theme) would still be covered in Gourmet Race (theme), no? - Gigi (talk • edits) 21:15, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

A big thing about "Fountain of Dreams" is that the base page was cluttered as is and the resulting page is of a solid length, something that I don't see being the case for "Terrifying Fiend". If I don't forget, maybe I'll illustrate the musical aspect on the server. And finally, once again, if we use the table approach and keep only the og and "Terrifying Fiend" in the infobox, and maybe elaborate on the latter within the page's text, would it be more acceptable? ShadowKirby (t/c) a.k.a. your new overlord ShadowMagolor 08:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Bump. - Gigi (talk • edits) 20:50, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm in general support of splitting this page from Terrifying Fiend. I think this theme does enough to differ itself from The Skull Gang and those different parts are note worthy enough to be mentioned in it's own page. NVS Pixel (talk) 23:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

A follow-up I forgot to mention is that the page has been edited since the split proposal to include more details for the track. I don't think it makes sense to be even more specific on its composition, and I believe it has doesn't really have anything else going for it being separate. It having its own identity is questionable since it is all about the Skull Gang or its members, essentially. ShadowKirby (t/c) a.k.a. your new overlord ShadowMagolor 23:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

PS: this being said, in theory the composition can be stretched somewhat. It could become repetitive fast, but if someone has a broad enough musical vocabulary and if the majority agrees to split, then it could still be done (I just probably won't agree with it). ShadowKirby (t/c) a.k.a. your new overlord ShadowMagolor 23:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)