User talk:Eficiente
Welcome to WiKirby![edit]
 |
-- Kirbot (talk) 03:22, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
About your "things I disagree with"[edit]
Hi, welcome to the wiki! I really appreciate your contributions so far, but... I feel bad to say it, but immediately I kind of have an issue with your userpage just being a list of your disagreements. You can discuss them on the relevant talk pages if you want — and if you have sources, you're more than welcome to correct misinformation, but granted a lot of it is just speculation in the end. In particular, airing out a disagreement with another user without talking to them feels a bit inappropriate in terms of how to use your userspace. I'd prefer if you could discuss things. (I will say in particular that the games have referred to Dream Land as a kingdom directly multiple times, and that the points about "Dark Meta Knight corrupting Sectonia" and "the breath of humanity" are just speculation that still doesn't confirm anything one way or another.) But I would definitely like the wiki to be as accurate and comprehensive as possible, and I hope we can have you join the discussion. You can join our Discord server if you would like to talk as well. Thank you! StarPunch (talk) 01:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Hello. That's reasonable to say, and I appreciate it. Idk how to say this better, but the thing is that I don't actually came to be part of the wiki, I'm an adult with limited times (relatively) and I more so like to spend my time in other sites, even if I do care about the series itself. So I put my disagreements there because I didn't want to bother to use the talk pages of each topic, which I knew was the proper way to do that. I had little care but I had some care, and that way was faster to give my thoughts out all at once, and keep on doing so in the future. The idea is that if we still disagree, so be it, maybe I'm wrong, and if not then cool. I don't think of it as something inappropriate.
What I actually came to do was to use the Proposals page for a few things of larger scale. And I may do so again in the future, but beyond that I'm probably going to disappear. I only saw this message because I imagined that people would tell me something & I checked, but I don't receive notifications. I also almost never use Discord, bizarre as that may sound.
I don't remember any 1 time that the games referred to Dream Land as a kingdom, and even then I would suspect the Jap. version may not have done the same. But if it has, then I'm wrong. Then again, maybe they follow the narrative of Dedede being a king and therefore are give false information, even if that sounds like it's applying too much dissatisfaction with the info given.
On speculation, it can be something that should not be said when talking about things objectively & in an informative manner, but it can also be equal to something being implied and that should be said when talking about things objectively & in an informative manner. I make sure to use the latter. And as we know, on topics like that it isn't just if the speculation is used or not, but how does the premise look like when we don't. By disagreeing with the possibility of "Dark Meta Knight corrupting Sectonia" with the mirror (or the mirror having leftovers of Dark Mind's corruption over it), then we therefore state as normal at all points in time in Kirby that the Dimension Mirror corrupts those who look at it for too long, because it was stated that it was its power that did that to Sectonia. That should be in its page. And technically, this is not impossible, but I find it logically ridiculous. Especially when it moves on its own to summon Shadow Dedede and suck real Dedede to the Mirror World to fight Dark Meta Knight, as if following the will of others from the other side as they are aware of the events in the real world.
I have no idea how a real physical human and the canonical intentionality behind the worldbuilding referencing how humanity used to be there is still speculation. Idk if you mean something like she being the only human, or if they were all like her but she still isn't human. But I'm good agreeing to disagree. Eficiente (talk) 16:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC-3)
- I appreciate the honesty, and I also get where you're coming from. The primary thing to consider here is that, in order to create and vote on proposals, you must be an established contributor to the wiki. You don't necessarily have to be fully invested in it, but being able to help out is a plus. It doesn't take that much time to talk on talk pages and such, even if you don't use Discord (completely understandable, by the way!)
- To elaborate a bit on the points I mentioned:
- Japanese text consistently uses the word 国 kuni to describe Dream Land, which can broadly be translated as "country", "land", "world", or "kingdom" (and has been translated as all four at some point). For "kingdom" in particular, the opening of Kirby's Epic Yarn calls it "a kingdom famous for peace and quiet". Dedede doesn't necessarily have to be a real king for the place to be called a kingdom.
- I agree in principle that things can be implied but unstated, and that these can be covered while remaining objective and informative, but I also think that we shouldn't make logical leaps that don't exist in the information we are given. For example, just because we say "Dark Meta Knight didn't corrupt Sectonia" doesn't mean that "every other instance of looking at the mirror causes corruption"; that's a false equivalency. "If [A] is true, then [unrelated point B] must also be true". (It's my theory that Sectonia drove herself to madness and the mirror doesn't actually have any special corruption powers, but that's also not confirmed.)
- For the last point, it's mainly because one, the real physical human doesn't actually appear in the games, and two, the term used in Japanese in that interview (人の息吹, "the breath of humanity") can broadly be taken to refer to as "signs of people" — remnants that a civilization once lived there — rather than literally meaning that humans once lived there. I agree it's likely, but it's not like we can call it canonically confirmed.
- I hope that makes sense. I appreciate that you took the time to reply to me! I know you must be deeply invested in these subjects, and I appreciate that you're open to discussion even if you may not have the time to fully devote yourself to it. StarPunch (talk) 20:00, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I also want to comment on a couple things both mentioned here and in the user page, hence my reply here.
- For using he/him for mentions of Kirby in translations from Japanese to English, it's not incorrect as I mentioned because Kirby media has used the pronoun かれ to refer to him before, which is a Japanese third person pronoun equivalent to he/him. It's mentioned in the page I linked, namely: "Kirby consistently uses the first-person pronoun ボク (boku) in Japanese media, and when necessary, is referred to by the third-person pronoun かれ (kare)." The source listed in that section even includes an example of かれ in a game.
- Related to the above, but also in general, while I can often understand the feeling of not wanting to use adapted terms in translations, not only are the lines of that often blurry, in the context of WiKirby, it's not really done because we are first and foremost an American English wiki, and we use that translation of any media whenever possible, which extends to translations. You are free to not like that, but there are not right or wrong ways to translate, unless you completely translate wrong of course. And in particular I want to point out why I personally find that a bit contradictory unless you go full one way or the other: while you kept Pupupuland, you used "King Dedede" instead of "Great King Dedede" which is his name in Japanese (デデデ大王). Why use the English name for Dedede, but not for Dream Land? It's one thing to consider if you believe on this style of translation. I have a friend who does that for her translations and that's valid (as they are not directly tied to WiKirby), but she fully uses Japanese names, using Nil for Void, Great King Dedede for King Dedede, Zan-Palulutizaanu for Zan Partizanne, etc. You can find an example here. If you want to do that for your own translations outside of WiKirby, this is one advice I would give you.
- Regarding your continuity mentions, I would point you to the recently revamped Continuity page. Also I would point out the that misconceptions page is a draft, and there are some quick sentences there that could use further tweaks. The point that page will eventually have is that Kirby has not one single "canon" and that there is no definitive timeline, just loose connections.
- Lastly, I saw your mention that you want to be here to propose changes via proposals but not overall contribute much to the wiki. It's clear you are passionate about Kirby and I relate to that, however one thing I do want to make it clear to you is that WiKirby has existed for years, with its own guidelines, way of working, staff, scope etc. Now imagine people like us, who have been contributing to this wiki for years, seeing someone new join, and immediately wanting to do major changes to the wiki before even trying to understand how the wiki works. You even admit to not wanting to be an editor here. I will be frank, that will not work. We welcome anyone to edit the wiki and contribute to it, but in all places I lead (not just WiKirby), it's never a good impression when someone joins a community and immediatelly wants to mold it to their own liking, before even trying to understand it. I welcome you to propose changes to WiKirby, after all we are not perfect at all and could use improvements, but I really do not like anyone who comes somewhere and just tries to change it before even trying to get familiar with it. So, either stay on WiKirby a bit longer, read the policies, understand our scope and mission, do a couple edits and learn to interact with editors, then start to propose changes (that fit WiKirby's image), or simply do what you said and don't be a part of the wiki. Sorry if I am sounding a bit blunt, but it's clear there are a couple of clashes already with how we do things here, but we are a pre-estabilished community and information source and as any kind of organization we have our set of rules and principles, that we cannot just change one day due to only one person wanting it. When I first started editing WiKirby, I had many points of the wiki I disagreed with, but I didn't go around trying to change everything, instead I edited places I was more comfortable with. Eventually I understood more about the wiki, contributed more, and helped shape new things. As years passed, some things I wanted to change ended up being changed, either due to me leading up a change or someone else, but not everything, and some things changed that I disagreed with. I may be the editor-in-chief here, but I am not a supreme leader either, and if I am in the minority of a discussion, that so happens to be it. Here on WiKirby, majority rules. Things you see here work the way they work due to the majority agreeing with them most of the time. Which, again, is why it's important to know the community and what WiKirby is before you start suggesting changes, otherwise you will end up not getting the support of the majority to begin with.
- Sorry for the wall of text, and I seriously don't want to kick you out of the wiki. On the contrary, I am trying to show you that if you really want to change WiKirby, please be mindful of our history and community. Thank you. - Gigi (talk • edits) 21:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I understand well, I was over my head. If anything everything so far has made me feel extremely welcomed, I have my own experience on VS Battles wiki in which all of that would be applicable, I never took anything done in the past days in the wrong way. I made the mistake of skimming over the standards of the Proposals page because I assumed how everything else worked from there, and I should have known better than to do that. I also imagined that the editing disagreement(s?) done were uncontroversial, and I didn't know that they weren't but I do know the importance of needing to have a discussion when that's the case. I was already planning to not be part of the wiki after all solely due to my own lack of time for it / the priorities I give to the things I do, and know that if I had infinite time I would love to talk with you guys all of the above and more, I'm sure it would be very productive. I also can't really say that I will try to make contact in X amount of time in the future because I don't see that as realistic from where I am, which would be tough to explain. So, thanks for everything, and sorry for any inconvenience. Eficiente (talk) 02:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)-3
- Hello again. I can make myself some time to debate over time (At worst 1 comment from my part every few days), and I'm motivated since I re-read that Continuity page, which I won't criticize here. Can I contact you somewhere other than Discord? Twitter would be good. Eficiente (talk) 05:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)-3
